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Opponents of gun bill to walk out of classes

Constitutional law professors deliberate 2008 court case’s application to legislation

By Erin Mulvaney

Daily Texan Staff

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Published: Thursday, April 16, 2009

Updated: Thursday, April 16, 2009

Legislation allowing concealed handguns on state campuses has incited passionate debate at UT. This battle has been ongoing since the founding fathers guaranteed “the right to bear arms” in the Bill of Rights.

In protest of a new bill, UT students and faculty, will walk out of classes today at 11:30 a.m. and march to the steps of the Texas Capitol against guns on college campuses.

Today marks the second anniversary of the shooting at Virginia Tech.

Several constitutional law professors across the country, however, are debating this issue in light of the rights listed in the U.S. Constitution. In 2008, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in District of Columbia v. Heller that the Second Amendment protects the
individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in the militia, but the question remains whether or not this right applies to the states.

Raymond Kessler, a criminal justice professor at Sul Ross State University, said the Heller case attempted to clarify the meaning of the Second Amendment and that the focus of the court’s opinion was on arms for self-defense.

“Like all constitutional rights, this right is not absolute,” Kessler said. “Whether the amendment applies against state governments is currently an open question. Thus, at this point, the amendment has no effect on state legislation.”

He said the court failed to clearly specify the standard of review to be used in Second Amendment cases when an individual challenges a law.

“The Second Amendment, like most of the parts of the Bill of Rights, should apply against the states,” Kessler said. “Further, I believe the Second Amendment should trigger the highest level of scrutiny, requiring government to provide strong justification.”

Kessler said that if strict scrutiny were applied to the states, a state ban on carrying on campus with a concealed-handgun license would be unconstitutional.

Eugene Volokh, a law professor at the University of California, Los Angeles, said the Texas Constitution gives power to lawmakers to prevent crime but that the question remains whether the Legislature should restrict carrying guns in certain places and certain ways.

“The constitutional matter is not imperative, but at the same time it’s a matter of good policy,” Volokh said. “Protecting the right to self-defense is an important moral right. My sense is that allowing concealed carry is, generally speaking, a good idea.”

The concealed-carry bill would allow students to obtain a license to carry handguns on campus. In order to obtain a license, a person must be at least 21 years old, pass a background check, complete a safety training course and be “of sound mind.”

“The kind of people who get the licenses, you don’t have to worry about,” Volokh said. “The kind of people who worry about committing murders don’t carry around permits.

People worry about mass shooters, but it’s not like he isn’t going to do the shooting if he doesn’t have a permit.”

Volokh said it is possible that the use of guns on campus may lead to more crimes, but said it is hard to see why it would be any different than carrying around a gun on the street, which is currently legal in Texas.

Paul Finkelman, an Albany Law School professor and former UT history and law professor, said that from a constitutional standpoint, the Texas Legislature has the right to allow concealed carry on campus, but he questioned the logic of state legislators.

“I think no one ever accused the Texas Legislature of being smart,” Finkelman said. “It seems to be an inordinately stupid plan because it means any lunatic can come on campus with a gun.”

He said he was surprised that anyone in Texas would consider wanting to have guns on state campuses, particularly UT.

“Given the history of UT when someone climbed up a tower and started shooting people, … what are these people thinking?” Finkelman said.

He said the Supreme Court rulings have basically said they are free to regulate fire arms.
“The sociological evidence is clear that if guns are handy, people will use them,” Finkelman said. “Having such a rule is an encouragement of death and mayhem at the University of Texas. There is no other way to describe it.”

Comments

19 comments
Urethra Franklin
Sun Apr 26 2009 17:02
I carry a switchblade. Comb.
Mark A
Wed Apr 22 2009 11:04
The law SHOULD be modified to allow individuals holding CHL to carry on campus IF they so chose. By advertizing the fact that it is possible the person or class room you are about to assalt has the right and maybe even the capacity to fight back with deadly force WILL cause criminal(s) to reconsider .
Your name
Mon Apr 20 2009 11:23
They are trying to pass a similar bill in Missouri and I think its a horrible idea. I'm all for the 2nd amendment, but just like you wouldn't let someone walk into an airport with a loaded gun in their backpack, you shouldn't allow someone on a college campus to either. Up security with actually security guards who do have guns on them. I feel more afraid to go to class knowing that someone next to me could have a loaded gun shoved between their books in their back-packs.

If you want to carry a gun around thats fine, but when you enter a college campus, leave the thing in your car. I think if this bill passes it would cause more harm than good.

BTW I am extremely conservative, but this goes way too far. I don't want it at my school and there a many many others who feel the same way.

Marc
Sat Apr 18 2009 19:12
I am so glad to see that there are so many pro 2nd Amendment, and completely rational people posting on here. Only 200 out of the thousands of students at UT protested this bill, which puts them decidedly in the minority. I am very proud of those of you who put Finkelman in his place too. His comments were totally asinine and only proved the point that students at UT will be safer as a whole once this bill passes.

For those of you who don't like this bill and think your lives are going to be in danger with all of the "gun nuts" running around...I would suggest that you go take some firearms safety courses and learn how to use the guns that so terrify you. That way maybe you can be part of the solution, instead of part of the problem like you are now.

Doug
Sat Apr 18 2009 05:35
Folks, this is a common sense piece of legislation.

Making guns "ILLEGAL" on campus only prevents the law-abiding from bringing them.

Anyone intending to kill folks isn't troubled at all by a "gun ban"

Pass the law and let CCW students protect themselves!

A Bubba
Fri Apr 17 2009 22:48
Paul Finkelman, an Albany Law School professor said...
“I think no one ever accused the Texas Legislature of being smart, It seems to be an inordinately stupid plan because it means any lunatic can come on campus with a gun.”

Hey Paul... smart guy... How'd that ban on guns work out at Virginia Tech? It allowed ONLY the lunatics to bring guns on campus. I guess no one will accuse YOU of being smart either.

Joe Internet
Fri Apr 17 2009 15:48
“Like all constitutional rights, this right is not absolute,” Kessler said. “Whether the amendment applies against state governments is currently an open question. Thus, at this point, the amendment has no effect on state legislation.”

Whether or not the federal 2nd amendment applies to states does not matter. Texas itself has a parallel right written into its Constitution: "Every citizen shall have the right to bear arms in defence of himself and the republic"

I guess Kessler must have failed law school. How he can be a professor is difficult to understand.

Woodard Springstube
Fri Apr 17 2009 12:47
I am an Associate Professor at a small, private college. Firstly, I want to make it clear that this opinion is entirely my own and does not reflect, in any way, the position of the school where I teach or its administration. If I could, I would get a CHL and carry in order to protect my students and myself. The police will always do their best for us, but they are not everywhere, and, at Virginia Tech, the shooter managed to distract them with two murders on the other side of the campus and then to block the doors of the building where he did most of his killing. If I recall correctly, it took them about 45 minutes to break in. During that 45 minutes, the students and faculty trapped in that building were on their own because the cops could not access the scene.

Second, the opponents have spread so much bad information, driven by fear, uncertainty, and doubt, that the whole issue has become clouded. Every person authorized to carry by this bill can already get a CHL and carry almost anywhere else in Texas. Why should they become more dangerous on campus?

Third, the background check for a CHL is, if I recall correctly, just as extensive and thorough as the background requirements to enter the police academy. And, much of academy training does not deal with firearms anyway. Much time at the academy is spent on law, how to drive in a pursuit, crowd control training, and other requirements of policing, so the amount of training in the use of firearms is still not as extensive as some might think.

Finally, last fall there was an incident near the campus where I teach that made me very much wish that I could have carried. A fugitive, wanted for capital murder, was on the loose in the neighborhood. He actually lived in the apartment complex that borders our campus, and I had to teach a night class. If he had decided to come to our campus and kill folks instead of committing suicide, as he actually did, we would have been helpless. All that the police would have been able to do by the time we got a response on site would have been to call the Medical Examiner and CSI to collect evidence and clean up the mess. And, as hard as they try, that is about all the police can do most of the time. Why? There are just too few of them to do anything else most of the time. So, I favor this law, even though the version before the house now will not prevent private schools, like the one where I teach, from forbidding guns in buildings.

Texan by the Grace of God!
Fri Apr 17 2009 04:30
When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns!

Isn't that clever? I love guns. I wish the Texas legislature would not only allow guns at UT but also allow us to shoot anyone we don't like. If someone offends us, I believe that we have the right to blow that someone to kingdom come. We would same money on police, judges, courts and prisons. That way anyone who doesn't think the way that we do would be eliminated from the gene pool and we have have a safe and secure world of nothing but persons who all think alike. No more wars, no more discussions, no more fights. Please Governor Perry, convince the Texas legislature that we all have the right to protect our world from lunatics that are different from us. Remember the Alamo!

Allen Hansen
Thu Apr 16 2009 20:16
All mass shootings where 3 or more people were slaughtered occurred in gun-free zones. Worldwide. Why is this a good idea?
John Woods
Thu Apr 16 2009 18:27
Hey guys! Here's a great idea. Instead of banning guns. We should ban murder!
Carl in Chicago
Thu Apr 16 2009 15:59
Paul Finkelman's arguments, as presented here, are wholly vacuous. He appears to lack a very fundamental grasp of this issue.

Right now, despite (and possibly encouraged by) the campus gun bans, "any lunatic can come on campus with a gun.” Since the founding of the University, any lunatic could come on campus with a gun. Repeal of campus gun bans would simply allow lawfully licensed and trained adults to come on campus with a gun.

But do not be mistaken about the reality of the situation. At any time, and at any university or college, "any lunatic can come on campus with a gun.”

H
Thu Apr 16 2009 13:46
As an UT alum and someone who does not share the same beliefs as many at that school, it does not suprise me that so many people are protesting the possibility of CHL owners being able to carry a gun on campus. However, it suprises me how uneducated some of these people are about what it actually means. The people who have these liscenses are trained on how to use their weapon and are required to learn all of the regulations that go along with having this license. They are required to keep them concealed, which means that no one will know that a person even has one until the time comes that it's needed, which hopefully will be never. So why are people so scared? That's what it boils down to. Being scared of guns. Why are they scared of guns? Because they don't know how to use them. As a gun owner and someone who is married to a CHL carrier, I understand that guns can be dangerous, but it is not the guns that are going off by themselves, it is the people who are holding them! As many others have said, the unstable people who commit these shootings are not going to care whether a place is gun-free. In contrast, CHL carriers are law-abiding citizens, a majority of who grew up around guns and own and use them frequently in their time away from school. They have the knowledge on how to use the guns safely and you can bet that if my child was at The University of Texas and god-forbid anything like Virginia Tech happened, I would want someone with their CHL and knowledge of guns to be there and at least try to stop it.
Dan in CT
Thu Apr 16 2009 12:38
Thanks for discrediting Finkelman's comment about the tower shooter. Like Rudy said, remember it was the legal, gun-owning, law-abiding citizens on the campus with weapons who helped stop him. That's EXACTLY the kind of thing this legislation proposes. Your logical and historical fallacies are astounding.
OG
Thu Apr 16 2009 12:33
I love how anyone who wants to retain their right to carry a concealed handgun is automatically an "ultra conservative republican." I'm a just-right-of-center libertarian - piss off.

I want to carry a concealed handgun because it's a good insurance measure. I don't drink, I don't party, I don't act irresponsibly, so why are people so quick to say that allowing me to carry on campus would cause a 180 in my behavior?

I believe it was Lennon who said "Whatever floats your boat, so long as it doesn't sink mine." Unless a CHL holder decides to go on a rampage (they don't), you have no right to tell me what I can and cannot have if it makes me feel safer.

Oh, and do remember that the tower shooting was done with a -rifle- by an ex-soldier suffering from PTSD, not someone who went through the long and arduous process of getting a concealed handgun license. And some of the people who stormed the tower were - you guessed it - civilians who carried handguns.

Don't tread on me.

John
Thu Apr 16 2009 12:07
I am a faculty member at a public university in Texas, and I agree Mr. Kohn's critique of Finkelman's comments. Any lunatic can come to campus with a gun, and no state law (or campus police) will deter him. I would prefer having the right to protect myself against such unlikely but potentially catastrophic events. It is essentially an insurance decision that I would prefer to make for myself, rather than being restricted by the University who will not likely provide me with much protection.
Insider
Thu Apr 16 2009 11:08
The bill has a good chance of passing out of the Texas House of Representatives, but intelligence reports indicate that it will quietly die in the Senate State Affairs Committee.
Your name
Thu Apr 16 2009 10:38
say's the ultra conservative republican.

ps. where is the protest starting?

Rudy Kohn
Thu Apr 16 2009 10:17
This idea that HB 1893 will allow "any lunatic" to "come on campus with a gun" is ridiculous. CHL holders are already permitted to carry on the streets of campus, in grocery stores, and basically anywhere a proper sign is not posted. Prohibitions on carrying while under the influence (or even in establishments that primarily sell alcohol) is already prohibited.

Right now, any lunatic can come on campus with a gun, and no one will have any recourse until the police arrive, minutes, or (if police responses to mass shootings can be extrapolated) as long as an hour or more later. Allowing licensed carriers to carry on campus will make would-be criminals think twice about attacking people on campus.

Finkelman's assertion that the history of the tower shooter suggests guns on campus are assuredly bad ignores the fact that, when the tower shooter began shooting, many students, faculty, and staff made it harder for him by providing suppressing fire until the police could neutralize him. Guns in the hands of criminals are the ones we need to worry about, and current security on campus is so lax that any wannabe shooter would easily be able to carry into virtually any building on campus.

Weapons in the hands of the law-abiding are not the problem. Don't punish us for the actions of criminals and psychopaths.







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